Author’s Note: Recently, I had a conversation with a high school friend of mine, concerning how people rarely think about the reality of hell, and going there for all eternity. We agreed that very few people do. This article is a work of pure fiction. However, hopefully, it will get people to at least start thinking about what awaits us after death, if we do not repent.
My Story
Today, I am in hell. Yesterday, I was just like you are now – eating, drinking, laughing, watching TV, enjoying my family, etc. Then, I got in my car to go to work, and a drunk driver ran a stoplight, hitting me broadside while going 70 mph in a 30 mph zone. I never even saw him coming. It all happened so fast. One minute I was alive listening to the oldies on my car radio, and the next minute I was dead, floating over my wrecked car, looking at my lifeless, bloody body. I didn’t plan for this. It took me a while to realize that I was dead, and that I was looking at myself from above.
The Tunnel
Suddenly, I was pulled through a really dark tunnel, where nasty vile people were making fun of me and tearing at my flesh. I tried to fight them off, but there must have been a thousand of them. The more I fought, the more they laughed at me, and the nastier they became.
As I was sliding down this tunnel against my will, I caught a glimpse of what must have been heaven. It was beautiful beyond belief; plants that seemed to be alive and giving off light, beautiful music that I had never heard before, and a kaleidoscope of colors there that did not exist on earth. I heard a voice inside my head, which I surmised was Jesus, telling me that I had forfeited heaven and being with Him for all eternity. Why? Because He said, while I was still alive, I did not fully commit my life to Him and His teachings. I always thought that Jesus was real, but I never seemed to make that life-changing commitment to follow Him, always thinking that there would be time for that when I was old.
My Sins
I kept hearing Jesus repeat my sins to me – pornography, bad language, dirty jokes, greed, envy, lust, drinking, and gluttony. Then there was that abortion I had my girlfriend get back in 1978. He said that my son, who I had my girlfriend kill in the womb, would have grown up and found a cure for cancer, and that many cancer patients suffer today, because of my selfish act. Sadly, his son, my grandson who never was, would have prevented the US and China from starting WWIII in 2050.
Jesus told me that He continued to send me unlimited grace every day of my life, but that I had always rejected it in favor of sin. Since my lifestyle rejected His living water, Satan was allowed to take over my life, and to eventually cause my death. I told Jesus that I really didn’t know what He expected of me, but He said that that was no excuse. The evidence of His love for me is written in the Bible, handed down throughout generations since his Resurrection. In it are the keys to Heaven; the sacraments in His church to strengthen me, as well as His Mother and His saints and angels descending down to earth many times to help me. He said that I ignored them, preferring instead to play computer games, carouse and drink a lot of beer, and to watch endless sports and entertainment on my huge flat screen TV. He told me that since I truly preferred these temporary things of the earth, rather than everlasting heavenly things, that I therefore got my wish upon death – not to go to heaven. And the really sad part to all of this for me is that He told me all I had to do was to go to a priest and make a good confession to be forgiven for all of my sins. This, I never did.
Hell
Soon I was covered with millions of worms, surrounded by snakes, unrelenting fire, loud noises and screams, a horrible stench, and terrible looking demons who torture me relentlessly day and night, with both physical torments that correlate to all of my sins, as well as mocking insults that I had the faith and threw it away. I cannot move any part of my body on my own. Knowing what I threw away and that I am totally separated from God and His love FOREVER is the most depressing part, along with the fact than I am NEVER getting out of this place. There will be no Mom and Dad to come and save me. If only I had listened to the Church’s teachings, instead of trying to come up with my own path to salvation. I always thought that being a “good person” was enough to save me. It never entered my mind while I was still alive that I could be wrong about anything, especially about salvation. I always considered it to be a strong virtue to “think for myself,” and that it was always a weakness to listen to anyone, especially to have some old-fogey medieval church tell me what to believe.
Too Late to Repent Now
Now, I would gladly give up every penny I ever made to be sent back to earth for 5 minutes, but that will never happen. I was a victim of Satan’s great deception, which fooled me into believing that I would never die, that self-pride was a good thing, that the sexual pleasures of earth were more important than obeying His commandments, and that the real goal of life was the pursuit of wealth and to be surrounded by beautiful possessions. After all, I thought, there would always be time to repent of my sins before dying. I really wish I would have listened when those “Holy Joes” tried to tell me about my salvation and what I was supposed to do with my life. But I laughed at them instead of listening. I never seemed to find the time to read scripture for myself and to find out what it said. That was as stupid as never reading my college textbooks in preparation for the final exam.
The Allure of Sin
Satan disguised himself as an angel of light many times during my earthly sojourn, and I was totally taken in by him – the beauty, the glamour, the glitz, the power, the sex, the money, the feel-good mentality, being entertained all the time, etc. I also believed everything the secular media and Hollywood ever said, instead of listening to His Church and to the Pope. The devil’s bait of sexual gratification seemed wonderful at the time, but it had lots of poison in it, which I know about now, when it is too late. Television calls their shows “programs,” and now I know why. They program humans into loving the ungodly, and to ignore God.
What About You?
So, now that you know my story, what will your story become? What will you do with your life? Like me, you may not have tomorrow to decide. Will you follow me to hell, or will you follow Jesus to heaven? The choice is yours, and only yours to make – today.”
The Word of God
Sirach 15:15-17: “If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice. He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish. Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.”
Matthew 7:19-23: “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”
John 15:4-7: “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
147 thoughts on “A Voice From Hell”
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Bill S., I love you and said prayers for you at Holy Mass today. I am not here to win cheap debating points with you. Since you are into science, just think of heaven as a different dimension, and you have to die to cross over into this stargate….I hope to see you there in the not-so-distant future. We can have a good laugh about our debate here…
Peace bro…
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This story needs a good sountrack – I nominate the likes of ” Teen Angel” or “Leader of the Pack” maybe ” Tell Laura I love Her ” , or ” Last Kiss”. Of course we coulk skip lyrics and go with the the theme from the Exoricst “Tubular Bells”. Oh, the possibilities are endless.
Good ones all!
Those would be songs about souls that ended up in hell? Is that what you are implying?
Really, now people, who gives a …..if there is a heaven or hell. We live now and we share this planet with others now…is not living a simple, good, altruistic life enough? Living a worthy life NOW is all that matters…the rest is simple speculation and needless speculation, I might add, as it distracts us from the now. We need NO motivation to live a good life…..
Yes, Phil. That is it in a nutshell. But are you agreeing with me or mocking me?
Bill S…I do not mock people, I am not mocking you….I said that NOW is all that counts, I do not discount another reality, another consciousness, my belief in past lives…but it’s irrelevant to life NOW and I am not directed by post death potentialities or lack of them.
I agree. Glad you were being serious.
Ray, give me your two-cents. .If there is no heaven or hell, how do you explain the occurrences of near death experiences where people have clinically died, and then return to share what they experienced. And that experience includes people who have seen only heaven and people who have seen only hell?
Diane – For those of us who have actually taken the time to study NDEs, instead of merely spouting our personal opinions, it is clearly evident that life after death is a reality. Doctors have declared blind people to be dead, only to have them come back alive with electric shock therapy. The blind people can describe everything in the room, as well as conversations in the waiting room. And that would be impossible unless they were alive after death. The clincher is that atheists who have died on the table and come back have become Christians after seeing the other side…
It’s called an endorphin rush…..a sudden release of endorphin in a time of extreme fear or stress which bring the experiences of past lives into our consciousness….clinically documented from NDE studies.
Endorphins are great, but they don’t allow the blind to see…
But they do, if you care to examine NDE and past lives, research shows that the body dies, however the brain continues to process for sometime after death. NDE experience indicates that the conscious self hovers above the body and consciousness sees what is occurring for some time until the conscious self (spirit) eventually leaves permanently or in some cases returns to the body because the work of the person is not done yet. So the conscious self can see if separated from the disabled body, but when it returns sight does not, but memory of the separated conscious self does remain. BTW, most theologians will describe Hell as a state of being not a particular place….quite unlike the story of Mother Henry Mary of the Twisted and Knotted Hickory Tree, SQX I had in 3rd grade in RCC school as elaborated and embellished your work of fiction. Or perhaps as Satre says in “No Exit”. “Hell is just other people.” Let’s not frighten children into being good humans, let’s encourage them by kind, loving example…carrots and honey, not sticks!
Hell is real. It is full of despair, torture, stench, worms, and fire. Do everything you can do NOW to avoid going there after death, because once you’re there, you’re never getting out…
I never said it wasn’t real…I said it was a state of being not a place full of worms…read JPII
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
Oh come on, Ray! Are you being serious?
Hell is the worst place in the universe. Several saints have been there and reported what they saw. Now you know too.
Several saints have been there and reported what they saw.
Nonsense, Ray. You are pedaling sheer nonsense. This fictional story that you posted is an insult to people’s intelligence. You need to reboot.
No. Actually, I’m warning you with a capital W.
There is no need to warn me. I’m not buying what you’re selling because it is bs.
You’ll believe in hell when you see it…
Don’t threaten me with hell just because I can see you are perpetuating a fraud for your own personal gain. I’m not buying it and I have no fear of any consequences for not drinking the Kool-Aid.
NDE experience indicates that the conscious self hovers above the body and consciousness sees what is occurring for some time until the conscious self (spirit) eventually leaves permanently or in some cases returns to the body because the work of the person is not done yet. So the conscious self can see if separated from the disabled body
That is metaphysical nonsense.
Too many stories of “dead” people knowing what is going in the waiting room and other places outside of where they died. The only answer is that their soul was alive and well witnessing it all.
The only answer is that their soul was alive and well witnessing it all.
Actually, that is not the only answer. That is the only one you are looking for.
OK, let’s have it Bill. How can NDE patients report what is going on in far away places upon resuscitation?
I don’t have answers for every apparent supernatural occurrence. That doesn’t mean that your explanations are the only right ones.
Thank you, Ray. That was the clarification I was looking for. Powerful reminder to all of us regardless of where we sit on this issue.
I think if was Albert Camus, the Nobel Prizing author, philosopher who said, “I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t, than live as if there isn’t and to die to find out that there is.” 😉 Words to live by.
When someone explains to me how the timing and order and beauty and interconnectedness of nature happened all on its own from an initial big bang, then I may listen to their atheist arguments. But I will be waiting a very long time, since big bangs always produce chaos and destruction instead.
Ray. The order of nature and the universe in no way proves your religious beliefs to be correct. You misunderstand the atheist worldview. Gods go way back before your god. Atheist don’t believe in any of them, including yours.
The one true God always was, is, and always will be. There are no other gods, period. The good news for you Bill is that God believes in you, regardless of your ignorance about Him.
The one true God always was, is, and always will be.
No one has the right to claim that theirs is the one true God. That is one of the biggest problems in the world today.
All Christians have that right, because we are telling the truth, not making up stuff to fit our worldview like you are.
Everyone thinks theirs is the one true God, one true religion, etc. You are no different. There is nothing special about you that makes your religion superior to any other religion. They are all based on mythology.
“To terrify children with the image of hell, to consider women an inferior creation—is that good for the world?”
― Christopher Hitchens
Camus? So very strange that you quote him: Albert Camus, considered the human need for higher order absurd. He argued that the “death” of God was inconsequential—that humanity had no need of a higher authority or the threat of divine wrath to live a good and moral life. Read the Myth of Sisyphus, by A. Camus
….Never quote an existentialist out of context.
Thank you, Phil. So noted. However, his quote stands as a testimony that he did fear God more than his existentialism.
“I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t, than live as if there isn’t and to die to find out that there is.”
You really don’t “find out” anything when you die. We can live a good life and enjoy it as best we can whether we do or do not believe in God. What we believe should be of little consequence to God if one exists.
A good Father always cares what his children believe, and that it true in spades for God our loving Father, who wants us to be one with Him for all eternity.
This is the sales pitch, the idea of a Heavenly Father who wants us to believe in him and be with him for all eternity. It is the legacy of Jesus of Nazareth who made the whole thing up and changed the world with his teaching. It is his creation, the whole idea was his. Got to give him credit. It worked.
Best Conspiracy Ever! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p9CY976_kw
Ha. Ha. That could happen!
Rising from the dead clinched his story as being true.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is no extraordinary evidence of any resurrection.
Like all of his apostles dying horribly for a lie, and no body in a grave ever found? LOL…
Wow, Ray. That is pretty sketchy evidence for such an extraordinary claim. That all ya got?
Thank you, Bill S. I will pray for you.
Diane,
I would say it this way: I would rather that everyone live as if the teachings of Jesus and his followers and biographers were meaningful and true, even if they were not based on historical fact, than according to the survival of the fittest mentality of Darwin and his proponents, even if evolution is a fact.
You would rather that everyone follow the teachings of a man that you consider mentally ill and delusional (as Jesus must have been if He declared Himself God when he wasn’t). Why is that? Seems illogical.
It seems illogical, indeed. What Jesus did for the world is without a doubt incredible. No one can deny that. Still, I do think that either he has been misrepresented by those who turned him into a god or that he was delusional and saw himself as the son of God. I don’t know.
BillS, I must say, you have given this Camus quote some thought to have composed this response. I’m impressed. I don’t know you, so I don’t want to insult you by assuming that I know you based solely on your responses here. Yet, I venture to think that you are quite an intelligent man searching for answers. I have noticed that you come here often to “challenge” content on Catholic Stand articles. I’m just curious. Respectfully, would you be so kind as to share with me the answers that you seek in your own faith?
would you be so kind as to share with me the answers that you seek in your own faith?
If you mean the answers I seek in my own belief that there is no God (my own faith), then that is a good question. I am living in a hell of my own making. Hell, to me, is knowing that a religion that has the potential to change your life for the better if you just accept it and go with it is not grounded in truth. It presents itself as “The Truth” but is anything but. My only hope is to be convinced that I am wrong, which I don’t think I am.
Bill S,
I respond to you here with all sincerity and with no condescending intended. I pray that you find the answers that you seek. It saddens me to know that you have not yet found the peace that I know. Throughout all the difficulties in my life, I never questioned God’s purpose for my life, or even His existence. I cannot image life without Him. The Truth that you seek is right in front of you. You see it. You hear it. You are just having difficulty believing and accepting it.
You are no different than many of the great saints. Even St. Thomas had to see the scars on Jesus, before he would believe that the man before him is the risen Christ. There is no shame in doubting. The shame is dying and never truly recognizing and knowing the Truth.
I hope that you will continue to come here, read and comment. I trust that you will also take the time to read the wisdom of many well-respected Catholic theologians, apologists and evangelists. One easy to read book is Rome, Sweet, Rome by Scott Hahn. Of course, he already believed in God as a Presbyterian minister, and came to a fuller understanding as a Catholic convert. I can offer you an endless book list to help you in your journey. All you have to do is ask.
There was a time when fell away from God, much like St. Augustine. But I returned with a deeper understanding and appreciation than I could ever have imaged.
Meanwhile, I will pray for you daily that you find the answers that will redeem you from this “hell of my own making.”
Peace be with you,
Diane McKelva
Senior Editor | Catholic Stand
Bill S, for your further consideration when you have time.
http://www.whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/atheist-converts/103-atheist-convert-jennifer-fulwiler
I cannot image life without Him.
Most believers cannot. But there is comfort in believing that does not require that which you believe to be true. That is what troubles me. In most cases, the simple act of believing is enough. I can’t do that.
Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. [Hebrew 11:1]
Let me make sure that I understand you correctly, Bill. I don’t want to make assumptions. What is it that you require in order to believe?
Is it that you doubt sacred Scripture to be the Truth? Is it that you cannot believe in anything that you cannot touch or see literally? Did you once believe and now doubt because you feel that God has failed you?
Help me to understand where you are coming from so that I can respect your position when commenting. Thank you.
Requiring people to believe the unbelievable serves no purpose. It is counterintuitive.
No one is required to believe the unbelievable. When one comes to realize the Truth, and accepts it as the Truth, one believes. That is not to say that the journey to believing is easy.
Do you believe that there is no God, therefore attempting to understand any aspect of the Truth is counterproductive?
When one comes to realize the Truth, and accepts it as the Truth, one believes.
The Truth is not true to me. It just isn’t. I don’t believe something just because I am told it is “the Truth” with a capital “T”.
Bill, have you seen a million dollars?
No. I have never seen a million dollars. What you fail to take into consideration is that Christianity thrives on getting people to see believing the unbelievable as something very admirable. It is seen as a great gift. The gift of faith. It’s all designed to gain followers. I can’t drink that Kool-Aid.
Bill, although you have never seen a million dollars, you know that it exists.
You have never seen God, although you know he exists, you just don’t want to believe in God, because in doing so challenges everything that is inherent in your personality. You want tangible proof. You want all your questions answered, in order to believe. You are of a logical mindset and believing in something that you can not physically see, touch, and hear is simply ridiculous.
The problem for atheists is that they choose to disbelieve, because they are uncomfortable with believing within the precepts of Christianity. By believing you have to trust. Many atheist have trust issues for various reasons. Too long to share here.
This is where I have to step back and allow you reflect on all that has been shared in this discussion by me and others. I can’t make you believe in God. You have to come to that realization on your own. We can give you all the information available. We can talk to you until the end of times, but until you find it in your heart and mind to reach out and ask God for help in understanding who He is and what role He plays in your life all further discussion is futile.
God is here for you. You only have to ask Him for His help in helping you. It’s really that simple. I encourage you to continue seeking answers to your questions. However, I will tell you that you may never find the answers you seek, because an atheist’s paradigm is deeply rooted in relentlessly disproving God’s existence and therefore the existence of heaven or hell. It is only when you allow yourself to become vulnerable, and openly accept the possibility that you are loved by God that you will begin to find the answers you hope for.
Meanwhile, I will continue to pray for you. I genuinely hope you find the peace that you seek. You deserve that and much more.
Peace be with you,
Diane
you just don’t want to believe in God, because in doing so challenges everything that is inherent in your personality
I agree with your assessment. My personality will not yield to any religion. That is not the person that I am any more. I did believe but it all came down like a house of cards.
I read the link you sent me and I
will keep searching.
Thank you, Ray. Please do. And don’t ever hesitate to contact any of us on Catholic Stand if you have questions. We are here to help you in your journey. All the best to you and your family.
Thanks,
I find Catholic Stand to be a good source for information and links and good counterarguments.
The clincher is that atheists who have died on the table and come back have become Christians after seeing the other side…
I would love to interview such a person. Who knows what a NDE could do to someone who is confused!
Google Dr. Howard Storm. He’s gone from rabid atheist to Christian preacher. I’m sure he’d love to talk to you.
Dr. Storm saw an opportunity to cash in on his NDE and he took it. He has found fame and fortune by doing so. The only natural explanation is that he is a fraud.
OR, he just wants to share his story with the rest of us. Nothing else can explain a rabid atheist like him converting overnight to a Christian preacher.
I don’t know enough about this so called NDE to change my whole worldview based on it.
BillS, why do you discount Dr. Storm’s conversion as merely the actions of an opportunist?
Another good question. Dr. Storm’s story seems to be intended to give believers scientific proof of what they believe. To me it is bad science.
Thank you for your comments.
Read John C. Wright’s account of his near-death experience. Quite fascinating:
http://www.strangenotions.com/wright-conversion/
I became aware of the origin of all thought, the underlying oneness of the universe, the nature of time: the paradox of determinism and free will was resolved for me. I saw and experienced part of the workings of a mind infinitely superior to mine, a mind able to count every atom in the universe, filled with paternal love and jovial good humor. The cosmos created by the thought of this mind was as intricate as a symphony, with themes and reflections repeating themselves forward and backward through time: prophecy is the awareness that a current theme is the foreshadowing of the same theme destined to emerge with greater clarity later. A prophet is one who is in tune, so to speak, with the music of the cosmos.
I don’t see why this would cause him to become Catholic.
Bill S-You cannot prove there is no heaven and no hell. You might want to check out Pascal’s Wager. Everything you assert has never been proven. These conclusions are simply more MATERIALISM DOGMAS. Science has never tested, measured, experimented on or looked at the “After that” to which you refer. [nor has science studied what happened before the Big Bang]. Science concludes there is no “after that”; but to paraphrase St John Marie Vianney, the eyes of Science see no furhter than this life, while the eyes of faith see deep into eternity. I pray God infuses you with the virtue of faith more so than in the past. I pray one day you see into eternity. You are on a journey, there is only one truth, and you are seeking it. God bless you on the way and hold you safe in the palm of His hand. OOOOPs-sorry, it is Truth with a capital T, and it is not a theory but a person who is drawing you to Him. Your friend, Guy McClung – and please pray for me.
I’ve had more than one supernatural occurrence in my life, which is proof positive to me that there is another dimension to our lives, called heaven…
Guy,
Thank you. I am most suspicious of this “Truth” with a capital “T”. I like to think of it as the (kick the bucket) challenge to end all challenges. It is like Jesus placed the larges bet that anyone can place, his life and our life, and we can either fold or call. Most people fold. The stakes seem so high that they dare not call and take the risk of losing everything (i.e., their eternal souls). But I know that Jesus is bluffing. If you know that the laws of nature are inviolable and you know that what Jesus and his followers and biographers claim require violation of the laws of nature, then you can bet the farm and call their bluff. And so I do, for no other reason than a disdain for being hoodwinked into folding.
Great story. Hopefully some will learn from this.
I hope so..At least clueless atheists have been warned…
This story is sheer nonsense. There is no heaven or hell. Religion uses the carrot and the stick to gain and keep followers. It is how Christianity got started and became the world’s most followed religion along with Islam which also uses the same sales pitch. When you die, your brain stops functioning and you lose consciousness. After that you are no different than any other dead animal. Without your brain functioning properly, you are no longer who you used to be. A non-functioning human brain is no different than a non-functioning dog brain or cat brain or any other type of brain.
LOL
You can LOL all you want. What I speak of is reality. What you speak of is nonsense. That fictional story is just that, a fictional story. It is fiction upon which your whole worldview is based.
Too funny….Psalm 14, dude…
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
Wow. How did I miss that? That’s all the proof I need! Silly me!
I agree…
Ray. You’re not interested in the real truth. You’ve found a nice niche and maybe a cottage industry. The real truth would just throw a monkey wrench in the whole works for you. Psalm 14 works just fine for you. I’m not like you. I’m interested in the real truth which for you would be an inconvenient truth. Fraud works just fine for you.
Jesus IS THE TRUTH, not your personal opinions…Sorry…
I don’t blame you for choosing to believe what you do. Why should you let go of a fairy tale that has gotten you this far. You’ve heard my opinion, which is based on a lot more research than just choosing to believe what you read in a bunch of ancient propaganda.
The fairy tale is that this world is all there is, and grab all you can while you are here. The reality is that heaven and hell last forever, and you and I will eventually be in one of those two places. Choose wisely, my friend…
The fairy tale is that this world is all there is, and grab all you can while you are here.
Afterlife is a concept that has changed the world. But it is only a concept. It plays on people’s hopes and fears and makes us all behave.
Like Santa Claus and the boogie man, heaven and hell exist as concepts that work very well at keeping us all in line. But in the end, we die in the same manner as all other living beings. If you understand what happens when your family pet dies you can understand what happens when you do. There is absolutely no difference. Dead is dead.
Lie – humans have souls, which are judged upon death. Animals do not. Your ignorance is stunning.
At what stage of our evolution from ape to human did we become so different in our makeup that we had souls while other animals did not?
Who knows? Who cares? God took care of this when he breathed His breath of life into us. When it happened is immaterial to our salvation.
That is just figurative language and has nothing to do with our evolution. We evolved to have a superior brain to other animals. You mistake that for God breathing a soul into us. Its all simple biology. If lower animals do not have souls, we don’t either.
If animals had souls, Bill, they would think and reason and use logic…They do not. They use instinct. BIG difference…
Do we think and reason and use logic because of our highly developed brains (as scientists believe) or because we have metaphysical souls (as theologians believe)?
I say no living brain – no consciousness. How can you believe otherwise?
We think and reason and logic because we are made in the image and likeness of God, our loving Father….
It is not because we are made in the image of an imaginary deity. It is because our brains have evolved from those of the Great Ape and earlier life forms. You present childish explanations not scientific ones. You need to acknowledge our humble beginnings.
Your brain evolved from an ape, I’m sure. Mine was given to me by God, my loving Father…
No, Ray. All our brains are the result of evolution, whether you can accept that or not. Your brain evolved through many generations from that of the Great Ape to that of the homo sapien. You may see that as the way in which your god gave you your brain, but that is how it came about.
Prove it to me, then.
If I referred to the whole body of scientific knowledge about the origins of species and the ancestry of humans, would that be proof enough for you? Will you accept what science has to say about how humans evolved from lower life forms as proof of what I have said or do I have to repeat it all for you?
I don’t know. All you have to do is to tell me how the first human got here in the first place, and then we can go from there…Please begin.
Ray. You need to read about evolution. You are either really weak on the subject or playing dumb.
Again – Please tell me how the first human got here – You know, the lightning hitting the amoebas in the primordial swamp goo story…The scientific method states that this should be repeatable in a lab for proof…It has not, and therefore is 100% BS for the lamebrained…
We don’t know what caused the first living cell that was able to make copies of itself and which led to all life that evolved from it. You originally asked not about the first living cell but about the first human. That came from evolution.
Ray,
As a nonbeliever, I can tell you that some of your arguments are weak but others are not. The ones that are not include the laws of nature and universal constants (precisely fine tuned for life to be possible), the order in the cosmos, miraculous coincidences, NDEs, how the first living cell (not the first human) was formed from inorganic matter (BTW it wasn’t lightning zapping an amoeba. The amoeba would already be a living cell), etc. Also, where did consciousness come from?
The single cell has been described as a busy factory after being looked at under an electron microscope. I don’t know how anyone can say that that isn’t intelligent design from a higher power. The ratio of protons to electrons is so precise, that if it was off by a factor of 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000, the world would cease to exist. That is much greater than 6 sigma quality that we use in industry, and it indicates fine tuning by a much higher intelligence than anything manmade.
I don’t know how anyone can say that that isn’t intelligent design from a higher power..
What makes you think there is any connection between that higher power and a fictional god? It could just as easily be Zeus or Jupiter. Why do you think it is Yaweh, the god of the Jews?
Assuming you’re right, why couldn’t God use evolution to develop our brains? And why couldn’t an all powerful God just have given us one in the first place? Either way, you lose the argument.
why couldn’t God use evolution to develop our brains?
I think if you asked any of the recent popes, they would tell you that is exactly what God has done. I just take it one step further and say that the process did not require a god.
And you get your authority from yourself to make such a declaration? Are you infallible?
Everyone knows that the process of evolution does not require divine intervention to work. You don’t have to be infallible to know that. Did you have any science classes when you went to school?
but it has to have God to begin it all. Dawkins surmised that aliens started humankind a long time ago. Maybe he watched 2001, A Space Odyssey or something…
Why does it have to be your god? How do you know it isn’t just some kind of intelligence that has nothing to do with any god?
Ray, the soul you have is the same essence, the same spark of life as
any living thing. The only difference is that you are responsible for what
is imprinted on it.
I disagree James. Souls are not the same as the animating mechanism that animals have. Our souls are judged at the end of our lives, whereas animals’ animating forces just go away.
I dis disagree as Jesus said not one sparrow falls w/o the Father knowing
it. You are worth many sparrows Jesus said, – worth many “animating
forces (that) just go away … no, Ray. Not even close.
Bill S excuse an impertinent question; if atheists like you are so secure in your beliefs why go on a Catholic site to badger the writer who has faith? I think you hear the baying of the Hound of Heaven at your heels. Jesus seeks you, He died for you on the Cross, PLEASE say “yes” before its too late and this terrifying post is your story.
http://www.bartleby.com/236/239.html
if atheists like you are so secure in your beliefs why go on a Catholic site to badger the writer who has faith?
I am not secure in my beliefs. I’m just trying to see if any theistic arguments make any sense. If not, that strengthens my belief that religion is really just wishful thinking.
God creating the world and us out of absolutely nothing, and then loving us as much as He does certainly makes no sense to the human brain logically. It does give me great comfort and hope, though….There is something instead of nothing only because of God. To believe otherwise means that you believe nothingness created everything from nothing…
God creating the world and us out of absolutely nothing, and then loving us as much as He does certainly makes no sense to the human brain logically.
Scientists have better explanations than your “God of the Gaps” fallacy. You’re not dealing with reality at all.
There is no conflict between science and God, since God created all of the laws of nature, with its universal constants…Laws demand a lawgiver, right? Or do they just invent themselves?
God created all of the laws of nature, with its universal constants.
When you use the name “God”, you are referring to the Judeo-Christian God about whom many stories have been told that have nothing to do with reality. Either say that God is the intelligence behind all this and then stop making up silly stories about that God or call the intelligence behind all this something else and let your God be the main fictional character in all your silly stories. It can’t be both. You can’t say that God gave us the law of gravity in one sentence and that God became a man and died for our sins in another.
Yes, I can, because God can create science and love us infinitely all at the same time. He’s God, after all.
Fine, Ray. You keep believing that. Just know that such beliefs will not pass the straight face test in the modern, educated world very much longer. There will always be someone willing to believe what you believe in the same way there will always be converts to Islam willing to fight and die for the Islamic State. It is very hard to talk sense into people who desperately need to believe in immortality.
I am a fool for Christ, it’s true. The Romans laughed and jeered at Christ as well, so I am in good company. You are in the company of the the Caesars, Stalins, and Dawkins’s…Good luck with that.
At some point, being a fool for Christ will lose its appeal and people will choose not to be fools for anyone.
I disagree…The benefits are literally out of this world.
Ray,
Being a fool for Christ is perfect for you. It fits your worldview and lifestyle and does not inconvenience you at all. So you can do your thing and say whatever you want. If someone tells you it doesn’t make sense you can tell them that it’s not supposed to make sense. You really have it made perpetuating your myth.
Correction: “She’s God after all.”
The concept of an all powerful, all loving deity boggles the small, limited, human brain, doesn’t it!
The concept of an all powerful, all loving deity boggles the small, limited, human brain, doesn’t it!
This is a fallacy. The smallest of human minds can accept this concept. The greater mental challenge is to see through it as the single greatest hoax played on all of mankind. And it has brought about a lot of good results. For most of us it is a matter of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. It ain’t broke. It’s working better than ever.
To think that all of this beautiful universe with its timing and order an interconnectedness just happened all on its own is laughable. Beautiful creations, to a thinking person, demand a beautiful Creator.
It could be that there is an incredible order to the universe that has nothing to do with a deity. Why would it have to be a god? Why can’t it just be the way things are, period? Call it Nature. Or the Cosmos, as Carl Sagan and Neil Tyson deGasse call it.
a watch demands a watchmaker, period.
Ray. You keep making a quantum leap. If a metaphorical watch needs a metaphorical watchmaker, why must the watchmaker be your Catholic God? You think you know everything about the watchmaker yet you are going by a 2000 year old religion instead of by modern science. If you want to know about the watchmaker, study the watch by the best scientific methods available not by antiquated folklore.
??? Assuming that the angry, genocidal, filicidal, misogynist god of the OT is the same god as the one of the NT….the innate contradictions do boggle my small, limited mind.
If you are sincerely looking for ” theistic arguments [that] make any sense”, then I would recommend this website:http://www.wordonfire.org/
It’s one of the best out there for clear, no-nonsense talking about the faith. Check out the videos here: http://www.wordonfire.org/resources/video/
Thank you. I will check it out.
Just watched Fr. Barron’s review of The Giver. Not sure that was what the author meant to convey. I don’t see it having anything to do with Original Sin, the Incarnation and our Redemption (although there are parallels in regard to the Giver taking on the suffering).
Thanks Leticia – I wrote the article for just such people….
BS, If everything you say was true, I would have you put down or at least neutered!
If it were true, I’d be right. Why have me put down?