In the article “The Ideal and the Real” discussing the Exhortation, Amoris Latetia (Joshua J. McElwee, Nat’l Cath. Reporter April 22- May 5, 2016), what appears to be a new teaching on eternal punishment in the Exhortation is quoted in the article and it also is printed in enlarged bold font within the text:
“No one can be condemned forever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel!”
Is this a New Truth? Is eternal punishment not eternal? What could and would this require? Examples of possible confusion of the faithful follow if this is indeed new teaching.
Jesus’s Mistakes ?
In light of the New Truth, did Jesus make mistakes and will they be corrected in new renditions of Holy Scripture ? For example (proposed corrections in italics)
Matthew 18:3
“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven, but you will eventually be allowed in.
Matthew 25: 41- 46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the partly eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . Then they will go away to eternal punishment but not really, and the righteous to eternal life.”John 17:12
“While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction, who however will not be lost forever, so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”
God’s Errors ?
Will Holy Scripture inspired by God be corrected in light of the New Truth ? For example (proposed corrections in italics):
1 Cor. 6, 9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God right away, but eventually ? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God right away, but they will eventually since an eternal Hell is impossible.1 Gal. 5, 19-21
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will, for a time, not inherit the kingdom of God, but they will enter the kingdom eventually.
2 Thessalonians 1: 6-9
God is just and merciful: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with somewhat everlasting destruction less than forever and shut out from the presence of the Lord for a time and from the glory of his might .
Church Fathers, Theologians, Doctors Of The Church
Will all works and all writings contrary to the New Truth be ignored, censored, deleted and never cited or quoted again within the Church ? Examples follow.
St. Irenaeus
In St. Irenaeus’s work, Against Heresies, will his words be forever (really forever) ignored ?
“Those persons prove themselves senseless who exaggerate the mercy of Christ, but are silent as to the judgment, and look only at the more abundant grace of the New Testament; but, forgetful of the greater degree of perfection which it demands from us, they endeavor to show that there is another God beyond Him who created the world. (Against Heresies, 4:28)
“ . . . the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, arguing from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavour to bring in another Father …” (Id.).
“ . . . the Lord, . . . judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free . . . For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,’ these shall be damned forever; and to whomsoever He shall say, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,’ these do receive the kingdom forever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.” (Id.)
“God will send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire” (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
“But it is also incumbent to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, looking upon them either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the altar of God— namely, strange doctrines — shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud. Leviticus 10:1-2. Such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, shall remain among those in hell (apud inferos), being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. Numbers 16:33. But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, shall receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did.” (Against Heresies, 4:26).
St. Augustine of Hippo
Are the following words of St. Augustine to be ignored and censored, as well as all other similar works of his ?
“There is a certain punishment future, fire of hell, fire everlasting.” (On The Psalms, Psalm LVIII)
Chapters 110-113 of St. Augustine’s Enchiridion are they to be ignored and deleted? which include, inter alia, these words:
“Chapter 110. The Benefit to the Souls of the Dead from the Sacraments and Alms of Their Living Friends.. . . . . No one, then, need hope that after he is dead he shall obtain merit with God which he has neglected to secure here.
Chapter 111. After the Resurrection There Shall Be Two Distinct Kingdoms, One of Eternal Happiness, the Other of Eternal Misery. After the resurrection, however, when the final, universal judgment has been completed, there shall be two kingdoms, each with its own distinct boundaries, the one Christ’s, the other the devil’s; the one consisting of the good, the other of the bad—both, however, consisting of angels and men. The former shall have no will, the latter no power, to sin, and neither shall have any power to choose death; but the former shall live truly and happily in eternal life, the latter shall drag a miserable existence in eternal death without the power of dying; for the life and the death shall both be without end.
Chapter 112. There is No Ground in Scripture for the Opinion of Those Who Deny the Eternity of Future Punishments.It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture, but, at the suggestion of their own feelings, they soften down everything that seems hard, and give a milder turn to statements which they think are
Chapter 113. The Death of the Wicked Shall Be Eternal in the Same Sense as the Life of the Saints.This perpetual death of the wicked, then, that is, their alienation from the life of God, shall abide for ever, and shall be common to them all, whatever men, prompted by their human affections, may conjecture as to a variety of punishments, or as to a mitigation or intermission of their woes; just as the eternal life of the saints shall abide for ever, and shall be common to them all, whatever grades of rank and honor there may be among those who shine with an harmonious effulgence.
St. Thomas Aquinas
Are all works of St. Thomas Aquinas, a non-Jesuit, contrearty to the New Truth, such as the following, to be censored, ignored and never cited or referred to again ?
“CATECHETICAL INSTRUCTIONS OF ST THOMAS AQUINAS
“THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT
“WHY ADULTERY AND FORNICATION MUST BE AVOIDED“Thus, God forbids adultery both to men and women. Now, it must be known that, although some believe that adultery is a sin, yet they do not believe that simple fornication is a mortal sin. Against them stand the words of St. Paul: “For fornicators and adulterers God will judge.” And: “Do not err: neither fornicators, . . . nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind shall possess the kingdom of God.” But one is not excluded from the kingdom of God except by mortal sin; therefore, fornication is a mortal sin.
“But one might say that there is no reason why fornication should be a mortal sin, since the body of the wife is not given, as in adultery. I say, however, if the body of the wife is not given, nevertheless, there is given the body of Christ which was given to the husband when he was sanctified in Baptism. If, then, one must not betray his wife, with much more reason must he not be unfaithful to Christ: “Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid!” It is heretical to say that fornication is not a mortal sin.”
Catechism
Will these Catechism sections be amended as follows (amendments in italics or in strikethrough)?
679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgment to the Son”.Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself. By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the somewhat but not really eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices almost for ever, with no turning back eventually. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
1874 To choose deliberately – that is, both knowing it and willing it – something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.
Conclusion
As is crystal clear, it is not crystal clear that, if indeed there is a New Truth, what effect it will have on: the rewriting and correction of Holy Scripture; the expurgation and censoring of various writings of Church Fathers, theologians, and Doctors Of The Church, editing of the Catechism, changing Church doctrine, and promulgating an entirely new theology.
Finally, is this still true: “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” (1 Cor 14:33) ?
13 thoughts on “New Truth? Jesus’s Mistakes? God’s Errors?”
was the quotation in the context of eternal life or was it referring to the canonical norm’s traditional practice of condemning someone refused a canonical annulment and subsequently re-married outside of the Church and having started a new family to never being able to be forgiven despite evidence available only in the private forum?
perhaps the author is not quite as docile a catholic as we should all desire to be? could it be possible that the author has written a hysterical misunderstanding of the exhortation?
Guy, I can’t find the article you are referencing by McElwee at NC Reporter. The only thing I was able to find was a blog ost by him entitled “Francis: ‘For God, no one is definitively lost. Never!’” onMay 4 —
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/francis-god-no-one-definitively-lost-never
As to the line in AL, it’s possible that when Francis s saying “No one can be condemned forever . . .” he meant that the Church (the eople of God) must not be judgmental. This wuld go along with his “who am I to judge” remark. The May post by McElwee would support this as wll. Quite frankly I have not read anything else by any theologian or cleric on this remark.
I agree, and hopefully this is what was meant. But it is not clear, and has not been clarified.
Gus-results of googling:
Periodical …Same-sex marriage — Religious aspects – Saskatoon Public Library …
saskatoonlibrary.ca/eds/results/all?query-1…sex…
Saskatoon Public Library
The ideal and the real. by McElwee, Joshua J. Published in National Catholic Reporter. April 22, 2016, Vol. 52 Issue 14, p1, 4 p. Published 2016.
Periodical. ×.
McElwee, Joshua J.
encore.sasklibraries.ca/eds/…/catalogue?…AND%2CAU%3A%22McElwee%5C%2C…
The ideal and the real. by McElwee, Joshua J. Published in National Catholic Reporter. April 22, 2016, Vol. 52 Issue 14, p1, 4 p. Published 2016. Periodical .
Guy, I tried your links and all I can get are the first couple lines of an article — “VATICAN CITY * In a radical departure from recent pastoral practice, Pope Francis has asked the world’s Catholic clergy to let their lives become “wonderfully complicated” by embracing God’s grace […],” If you do a search at NC Reporter for all of McElwee’s articles, however, nothing comes up with an April 22, 2016 date. Maybe it was only in the print edition?
The quote from AL is in Chapter 8, #227. A more complete quote is “It is a matter of reaching out to everyone, of needing to help each person find his or her proper way of participating in the ecclesial community and thus to experience being touched by an “unmerited, unconditional and gratuitous” mercy. No one can be condemned for ever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and remarried, but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves. Naturally, if someone flaunts an objective sin as if it were part of the Christian ideal, or wants to impose something other than what the Church teaches, he or she can in no way presume to teach or preach to others; this is a case of something which separates from the community (cf. Mt 18:17). Such a person needs to listen once more to the Gospel message and its call to conversion.”
I suspect if the discussion you speak of was being had at the National Catholic Reporter no reputable Catholic publication picked up on it because it was only the National Fishwrap (as Fr. Z. calls it) trying to make something out of nothing.
Pope Francis told Scalfari that no one goes to hell. It was printed in a national newspaper and has never been denied, retracted or corrected. Let that sink in, and the language you cite in AL becomes even more troubling. We all need to realize that we have a Pope who’s private views are way off the reservation. We can only pray for him and remember that the Holy Spirit will not permit him to totally destroy the Church.
[“What happens to that lost soul? Will it be punished? And how? The response of Francis is distinct and clear: there is no punishment, but the annihilation of that soul. All the others will participate in the beatitude of living in the presence of the Father. The souls that are annihilated will not take part in that banquet; with the death of the body their journey is finished.”]
Scalfari does not have a lot of credibility considering he doesn’t use a digital recorder or take notes. He’s also 92 years old. Maybe Francis said “no one is consigned to hell” in refutation of Calvinist teachings, and Scalfari ‘remembered’ that as Francis saying ‘no one goes to hell.’ Hard to know for sure. Also see my comment above to Guy.
That explanation doesn’t fly given that there has been no denial or retraction from Pope Francis or the Vatican.
Perhaps the Vatican was “considering the source” and didn’t feel it worth a comment or denial. As I said in my comment to Guy, I haven’t seen any other comments on that line by any other cleric or theologian, so I tend to think the AL line is not a real problem.
Guy, an eternal hell is possible, it’s called the cycle of life-sin-death, but as we know, any cycle (drugs, vice ect) can be broken. The idea that God wouldn’t let you try again and again, making your own bed every life cycle your soul undergoes is a human assumption and not the spirit of forgiving ” seventy times seven “. Do you get fired for one mistake on the job ? No, you get docked, demoted and warned. You expect too much of humans in one measly life who are condemned to die from birth. If I didn’t know your generous heart any better I’d say there’s something you relish about the idea of an eternal hell in every case. Jesus perfected the art of metaphor and parable so as to lead us to heaven while reminding everyone that there’s a lot of nasty stops in between. There’s a big difference between having a millstone around your neck, wailing and gnashing ones teeth and it being better if a person had never been born. You really need a good dose of eastern deism so as to better understand how God thinks in terms of punishment. Heaven of Hell or Hell of Heaven; its our choice(s).
You are entitled to this opinion, james, but it contravenes Catholic doctrine. Hell is both real and eternal. All Catholics are required to give religious assent to this teaching. Those Catholics who refuse are objectively guilty of the sins of voluntary doubt, incredulity or heresy.
Carrion comfort. Forgive me, but i prefer to believe what the Saints have said about Hell rather than your wishful thinking. Unless of course you have had first hand experience of Hell like St. Padre Pio or St. Theresa of Avila.
Go for it C.